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PBIS Journey to Genius
Are you in the process of developing your PBIS Framework? Are you wondering where to start? You are in the right place. Join Dianne Ferrell and Diane Ruff as they share the ups and downs of creating and implementing a top-notch PBIS framework that has empowered their school to achieve Ohio recognition as a PBIS Gold School for 4 years. They will also share current issues in behavior management and how PBIS can help with those ongoing struggles. We would love to hear from you! Email us
@ pbisjourneytogenius@gmail.com
PBIS Journey to Genius
Episode 16 Innovative Approaches to Discipline with PBIS Principles
Unlock the secrets of innovative student behavior management with Minerva Elementary's reflection room, guided by the wisdom of PBIS principles. Dianne Ferrell and I, Diane Ruff, explore how the calm of reflection can transform student behavior, sharing our "three Rs" strategy that empowers students to reflect, reset, and return to class with a fresh perspective. Our conversation dismantles the myth that PBIS is synonymous with leniency, shining a light on constructive, instructional consequences that pave the way for meaningful behavior change. Inspired by insights from the "Expert Instruction: The Teach by Design" podcast, we reveal how to craft consequences that build, rather than break, a student's ability to thrive in the classroom.
Experience the power of consistency across educational environments, as we delve into the necessity of setting clear behavior expectations for students, underpinned by the mantra "be safe, responsible, and respectful." We offer practical tactics to manage classroom behavior, with a focus on the importance of timing and approach to behavioral instruction. Our reflection room is not just a space—it's a tool for tackling the underlying causes of misbehavior, helping students shift from their "animal brain" to their "thinking brain," and fostering lasting change. Engage with us through email and our social media platforms for more resources, including our PBIS Tips of the Week, as we guide you on this journey to harnessing the genius within every student.
Welcome to PBIS. Journey to Genius. Are you in the process of implementing PBIS? Are you wondering where to start? You are in the right place. We are here to support you. Stay tuned.
Speaker 2:Welcome back everyone. Welcome back to our podcast. I'm Diane Farrell and I'm here with Diane Ruff. We are two educators from a nerve elementary and we started a podcast all about PBIS, and Diane and I have been working together in education for many years and the past 14 of those have been on a PBIS Journey. This podcast is not only our story, but the story of many other award-winning schools sharing their insights.
Speaker 1:So what we talk about today, diane. Well, last week we highlighted our reflection room. That's here at our building at the Minerva Elementary, and the reflection room is a place for children to go when they need to come to the office. So instead of always just sending children straight to the office, we wanted to get away from that. We wanted to get children in the office until we could figure out exactly what was going on with their behavior. So this is kind of a place where they can go. They can calm down, settle down. We have an aide in there and then she gets the stories of teachers and kids alike and then sometimes she's able to just get them back to class, but other times then it does come to the office.
Speaker 2:And we had never had anything like this ever. Kids have been just coming straight to the office and this is actually, you know, diane's being kind, but this was her brainchild, so this was her whole thing.
Speaker 1:We've had it now for probably 14 years.
Speaker 2:I think I know, but then you and I go way back. So when we talk about.
Speaker 1:We never had it. That's in our early years of teaching.
Speaker 2:It was always that when kids were, you know, removed from our room, they were sent to the office. That's what they did, and so this was, like I said, diane's brainchild, and it has been wonderful for our school. So we like to think of the reflection room as a time for a child to reflect, reset and return.
Speaker 2:So, the three Rs and we like to reteach behaviors for them to return. But we found that this is really fitting into the PBIS philosophies of appropriate consequences. But Diane highlighted that for me in a podcast she was listening to Talk about that.
Speaker 1:Yes, there are other podcasts out there, although we hope you continue to listen to us and only us. No, that's not true, but there is a podcast out of Oregon called expert instruction, the teach by design podcast. It is a PBIS podcast and episode 35, called myth busters, that PBIS has no consequences, actually talks a little bit about this idea of consequences and what are consequences, when should consequences occur? And also the fact that consequences don't fix the behavior.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of times people will go and we have heard this. Educators will say well, you know, pbs, all they do is give them candy and then they send them back. There's no real consequences for the students when they're removed from the classroom and I know that that whole acknowledgement system that's what we call it. Not giving them candy is one way of changing behavior. I mean acknowledging the good. We all like that. Adults love that whenever we're acknowledged for the good things we do. But sometimes that doesn't change the negative behavior by just bringing out the positive. You know, sometimes it doesn't. So I think PBS has gotten. Has gotten like a raw deal whenever they've said well, there's no consequence, you don't do anything.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:So this podcast if you get a chance to listen to it like Diane you know turned me on to it and I really enjoyed it. So we're going to kind of use the information from that podcast today and we're going to align it to our reflection room, which we feel addresses that idea, that busting that myth. So they say right.
Speaker 1:So you know consequences should be instructional as much as possible. So yes, I mean students. If they're misbehaving on the playground, they've hurt someone. There's been some kicking or punching or whatever. Definitely being removed from the playground, that's a consequence. Usually you lose a playground or a recess the next day. That's a consequence. But we don't stop there. We then go over the expected behaviors. We teach what needs to happen. Sometimes, like our aid talked about, you know we'll teach behaviors through games or watching a video of appropriate behavior. Sometimes writing an apology letter is teaching Time to think the right behavior.
Speaker 2:So you really need to listen to last week's episode about our reflection room even before you listen to this one, if you get a chance, because our aide does a really good job of telling you what she actually does in that reflection room. But what? Talking about removing a student? Yes, removing a student is important. Sometimes, like now, there are all kinds of strategies that teachers use to keep from removing a student. There's redirection, there is accenting the positive, there is all kinds of things you know that toolbox teachers have. But when that's not working and the student needs removed, then we have to think is just removing them going to change that behavior? Because it usually doesn't really, and sometimes it can be a reward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes children actually want to be removed, because then they don't have to read, they don't have to do the work, or they don't have to do the work you know, and they get out, and if they get to hang in the office with the secretary, that can even be more fun, and if they know that, so really really removing a student all you've really told that student is, if I do this behavior.
Speaker 1:I get out. I remember when I first became a teacher, and actually when I was growing up, the big consequence was just, you know, for elementary kids was to sit out in the hallway. We were thrown out of the classroom.
Speaker 2:We don't do that much.
Speaker 1:In Borbo we used to Do you remember, yeah, actually, when I was growing up and even when I first started teaching, kids would be removed to the hallway because it was a punishment to not be in the classroom. But really, really most of the kids that would end up sitting in the hallway enjoyed that. It was a busy place because they could watch everyone walk up and down the hallway. They didn't care so much about their schoolwork.
Speaker 2:So we'll talk to them.
Speaker 1:I am so glad that we've gotten very far away from that we have gotten very far away from that, but that is where it used to be. We don't send kids into the hallway.
Speaker 2:If it wasn't the office, it was, it was the hallway. Another thing that the podcast talked about, which I thought was really interesting, Diane, is that sometimes, okay, teachers are saying, okay, they need to be removed from my room. That gives the student a break, that gives me break, that gives the other students a break, but then I don't really know what. Like maybe I think nothing happens to them. That's why there's no consequences, like they just get to go down there into this abyss of an office.
Speaker 1:Right, I've sent them to the office, but nothing happened, nothing happened.
Speaker 2:So Diane's going to talk a little bit about the Swiss program and why that addresses that and what we do with those reports.
Speaker 1:Right. So when in our building, when it's time to send a student down our reflection room aid, as she talked about she usually has the teacher fill out a form that kind of states what's going on. Because we always want the teacher's side of the story first. We're not going to listen to the student tell us what happened. We want to know what really happened from the teacher and then when we get the child down, our reflection roommate will get the child's side of the story. Listen to the child, because a lot of times we're removing because they're melting down for some reason and we want to know why they're melting down.
Speaker 1:It's important to get their side too. It is so, you know, once they're down in the reflection room and this student calms down, she gets their side of the story. That's where it will help us dig down deep into that antecedent, which what actually led into the removal. After that it usually comes directly to myself or the assistant principal and then we make a phone call home because that's part of the consequence. We want the parent to know exactly what's going on. We also record all of it in what we call we've talked about this before our Swiss and the teacher gets a printout of. You know what the consequence is.
Speaker 2:That's the key, right there, Because when they were talking in that's the genius. That's the genius Because when they were talking in that podcast, they said that without that communication that teacher has no way of knowing what was done. So with that Swiss report that you give that well the reflection, roommate does, or the principal, if they're the one doing the behavior, if it's a major behavior, that teacher gets a copy in her mailbox. So now she knows exactly what was done and there's no nothing was done, Like they know what that consequence was.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, so you know, we also a lot of times we'll, if it comes to the principal, a lot of times we'll walk the student back up to class and we'll briefly, you know, check in with the teacher quickly, but it's all recorded on the Swiss paper that they can see that.
Speaker 2:And, like she said, the teacher gets a copy of it. It goes, of course, on the Swiss documentation, the school counselor because, if you don't know from us, I am a retired school counselor. I was part of the school counseling system for the past many years and I would get a copy of this too. Now you say, well, what does the school counselor do with that every time? Well, I didn't do anything with it, but it was information Like, and then I could see if I got several of those something's going on. So then maybe I did need to interact, you know, get a hold of the student and find out if there was a bigger problem. So it's all about information, and in the podcast they talked about the fact of just the more information, the better you know, and when people aren't informed about that, they think nothing's happening. Nothing's happening.
Speaker 1:And that's not true. So a lot of times when we have to actually remove a child out of the classroom, it is a temper tantrum of some sort. So after we get the student to calm down and we've talked to the parent and there might be some consequence in there, a lot of times talking to the parent is the consequence, though, you know. But then the next step is to really determine what is causing the meltdown. What is that in a seatant, and then moving to start helping the child. We're dealing with a child right now that gets very upset, overwhelmed with the workload. A young student gets overwhelmed with the workload and so, you know, takes a look at whatever's required and then they don't wanna do it, they get defiant, and part of this is a trauma situation. So we know, with trauma kids, they wanna try to control their environment as much as possible. So how do we help this child? Give them control, stop the meltdowns and do the work okay?
Speaker 1:So there's lots of things involved there. If we were just punishing, we wouldn't be helping this child at all. So one of the things we've been looking at is we've adjusted the academics. We're doing some pre-teaching so the child isn't overwhelmed when they see the next concept coming up. They've already have been briefed on it, so it's not a big surprise. The re-teaching comes into coping skills. How am I going to when I start to feel frustrated? And we've talked about well I don't know if we've talked- about zones of regulation.
Speaker 2:So much here. We have not talked yet.
Speaker 1:But we use zones of regulation here and so teaching kids to recognize and verbalize how they're feeling, and then so, working with this student, she begins to feel very frustrated. So then she's got places that she could look at on her. She's got a chart in front of her for coping skills to help her.
Speaker 2:So those are tools. So those are tools.
Speaker 1:So we're teaching and we're spending time outside of the academics to teach that. So, again, because we want her to stay in the classroom, Be successful and stay in the room.
Speaker 2:So, at the end of the day, removing that student from the room is probably not going to change that behavior. Just removal will not change Just removal will not.
Speaker 2:Because she's still going to be frustrated with a large workload Whether you take her down to the office or not, and she's probably gonna like being in the office because now she doesn't have to do the work. So you know it's a win-win for her. But removing that student shouldn't be the end of the interaction. It should only be the beginning, and so that's what Diane is just talking about strategies to help them be back in that classroom, because that's what you want. You want them to be back in the classroom.
Speaker 2:Another thing we talked about last week that I thought was really important to bring up is your established procedure for removal. So we go back to that T-chart again. That's very important. So that's classroom-managed behaviors, you know, office-managed behaviors and the flow chart that goes with that, so that everybody is on the same page about when the reflection roommate is to be called, when she needs to come in. If you listened to that last week, she's great. So you need to listen to that when she talks about what she does when she comes to the room to assess the situation, to get the student to come with her for a little bit, and all that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:But, knowing that predetermined procedure, have a plan. What is the plan? We're not gonna lead by emotion, because emotion is I'm fed up with this and I'm just calling. You know, get them out. But that's not the way it needs to happen. And the and that T chart that predetermined that flow chart, that is really, really important. Most of you should have that's part of your tier one, but the reflection room in our flow chart is a big piece of that. When does that come into play Now? Um, we talked about consistency amongst classrooms.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so this is really a big deal, especially maybe at the high school level, middle school level and upper elementary, when students are switching classes, Because you know you can have your common rules throughout the building. Ours is be safe, responsible and respectful, but each teacher has their own way of doing things and, um, maybe you know, in an English class they do literature circles and they're allowed to talk to each other and share ideas.
Speaker 1:All those conversations, those sidebar conversations, but in another classroom, maybe in in math class or social studies, it's supposed to be much quieter and really no talking going on. Uh, so you know, our students need to know the expectations and be reminded of them constantly. I know here in our building too. They come from gym class where they're allowed to run around scream, yell and scream.
Speaker 1:Yes, but then getting them back into transitioning back into the classroom, the teacher needs to do a little reminder of all right the expectations in the classroom are and then rattle off the expectations at the beginning, because that will stop any confusion with students.
Speaker 2:And I think sometimes we take for granted, just like we do with PBIS rules, that once taught, always learned, and that's not the, that's not the truth. And so when those students come back into you, you know from another classroom or whatever and you have your expectations for your class. I'm not saying that kids aren't going to break those rules and I'm not saying they're not going to all do what they're supposed to be doing, and some kids are just going to do what they're supposed to do every time they come in because they just will. But reminding that, having that front loading, like Diane was talking about, as soon as you all sit down, now remember, let's remember the rules of the room and then having that just putting that out there with them before it even starts and they said that in this podcast and I thought that was really good. And you know, just because even when we go to workshops and things like that, you don't you don't even know what it's going to be like until the presenter tells you what is it, you know?
Speaker 1:and they will get up and go to the bathroom. They do, they set the parameters, you know a lot of times.
Speaker 2:So we think about that. As adults, we want to know what am I going to be allowed to do here? Well, I think we just assume children can do that. So so that was in the podcast. I really liked it that they talked about that and I think you know us as educators, and teachers should just take those couple you know minutes to front load our kids again about the expectations of the room or the lesson you know and what we were going to do before behavior starts.
Speaker 1:It really needs to be done almost daily, because children are children.
Speaker 2:Children are children and each lesson can be different. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, in this lesson this is going to be allowed, but then maybe this lesson is gonna be more lecture. So just thinking about that, you know, out there as just another way to handle behaviors and kind of, you know, put those expectations out, just like we put expectations out in the building. You know everything as we were looking at the podcast again. Another thing they talked about is thinking of instruction, not retribution, and I like that too, not kicking a student out, yelling at them, humiliating them. You know they talked about even labeling them as a troublemaker. You know, really, that is not gonna change any of that behavior long-term.
Speaker 1:No, it really doesn't. You need to address the behavior, administer the consequence, but then you need to figure out why that behavior is happening and begin to help that student change their behavior through reteaching or coping skills and getting them to recognize how they're feeling. Just like I, you know a middle schooler can feel very frustrated and have an outburst, and the teacher might not even know that the student's having frustration. Right yeah, so you know. And then outbursts are not allowed. So what can you do differently when you're feeling frustrated and our middle school.
Speaker 2:She just said middle school has put the reflection, so they have taken our model of our reflection room. And what is it?
Speaker 1:two years now, I think so They've done it.
Speaker 2:I think they have done that model over there, helping middle school kids, you know, redirect their behavior, rethink, reflect and front load before they go back in the room. So, again, it is removal, you know it is, but it's removal with instruction, and I think that that is so key and what I saw really aligned with this PBIS. It's genius. It's genius, isn't it? Well, diane and remember I'm not here anymore, but I'm loving to hear what goes on here and talk about it with you all is talking about not only doing that in the moment, but then doing that as an actual set aside time to do it. And I guess you know Diane was always good at telling me about the animal brain and the thinking brain she used to tell me about that all the time.
Speaker 2:Are we in our animal brain? Okay, so we have to think about when a student comes down to the reflection room to have that reteaching might not be the best time.
Speaker 1:Exactly Because we are in our animal brain right now.
Speaker 2:So the only thing we want our reflection is to get them into a thinking brain and then maybe later. So talk about your idea of instruction later.
Speaker 1:Well, yes, so our instruction later, you know happens at a certain time of day, just like you would send kids to get reading instruction from title and it happens every day at 10 o'clock or something. So you know a student that needs to reteach their behavior and it needs to be one specific behavior.
Speaker 1:Right, we can't teach everything at one time If we want to teach a student to raise their hand before just blurting out or following directions. So if we're doing a blurting out, I think that last week Nicole talked about having they playing a game and having the student raise their hand.
Speaker 2:It can. Just, you know, teaching that behavior. Yes, like what is expected.
Speaker 1:What are we doing? Following direction seems to be a big one for younger students. So playing board games where they have to follow directions, and we do this for 10 minutes 10 to 15 minutes, is it and then get them back to class. But we do it at a different time of day, when the child is in their thinking brain and when we can also talk about feelings. And how do you feel now, as opposed to how did you feel yesterday when there was the meltdown? We use pictures, but really anybody middle school, high school. If students are allowed to just sit and talk with somebody at a later time, when they're in their thinking brain, they can analyze how they felt, what caused them to feel that way and then what can we do to prevent that from happening again. So lots of reteaching.
Speaker 2:I know that whenever we were looking at when school psychologists would ask me about specific behaviors that I was very worried about, they would want data on it. So it's a very cool thing, I would think as you start this to you have your data about how many times that child has had a poor choice marker removed from the office or whatever, and then you start this instruction and say you do it every day for 10 minutes per.
Speaker 1:Two weeks, two weeks okay.
Speaker 2:We're not talking a year.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Okay, we're just talking five days, two weeks, 10 days, whatever, and then see if that eliminates the referrals afterwards, If they transfer that knowledge that way they were in their thinking brain back to the classroom. Because I think you're gonna see it will.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And you know, a big part of this too is the teacher needs to be on board, because what we're teaching down here or when they go for a reteach to manage their behavior, we wanna share the same language with the teacher and we want the teacher to be watching for that. So if we have a student that gets very frustrated and then throws a temper tantrum, but we've taught that student some coping skills, the teacher needs to be a part of that plan, know the coping skills. And also, as the child starts to, if she sees, or the teacher sees, that the child's starting to escalate and feel frustrated, the teacher knows hey, how about we try?
Speaker 2:whatever what we've talked about, whatever coping skill yeah, teacher's part of that.
Speaker 1:So teachers have to be a part of it to make it work, Otherwise it won't work.
Speaker 2:So in our building, teachers are a big part of those plans. So there's a coach at every grade level and we've talked about that before and we've had some of our great coaches here and those coaches help work and have meetings with the teachers, with the reflection roommate, to make sure that everybody's what is being taught again, so teachers are not left out. What is being taught in those sessions, what is the behavior that the student is having trouble with and how can we change that? How can we change the behavior. And that's what PBS is all about changing the behavior.
Speaker 1:Positive behavior interventions and supports.
Speaker 2:So I guess we've talked a lot today about the criticism of PBIS, which we heard about it when we started that there are no consequences, we're just giving kids treats all the time and there's nothing else. But I really enjoyed this podcast. I liked a chance for us to talk about it and to relate it to our reflection room which, like I said, was Diane's brainchild. But it has really made a difference in, because if you're sitting there listening to this and going, how am I gonna do that? Like the principal doesn't have time, it doesn't have time. But this is a way to make that happen and it's really been great for us.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so that podcast we keep referring to is called Expert Instruction, the Teach by Design podcast, episode 35, which I think I'm able to link into our show notes.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, that'd be great.
Speaker 1:I'll try to do that. Yes, I'm still learning how to do a podcast.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, hey, we're learning something new every day. Well, I guess that's all we have for today. So thank you so much for joining us, and if you've ever had that idea, or somebody said that to you, that PBI's doesn't have any consequences, and maybe after listening today, you've taken away a little a haze about what those consequences are really like, and that punitive and those don't always change behaviors. It's all about changing behavior, and this is what we want, because we want students that can be in class absolutely and can learn.
Speaker 2:That's where they learn. Yes, that's right and we would really love to hear from you. We had a couple emails that we'd gotten and responded to and that's been awesome, so we know we have listeners out there. Please refer to our Facebook page and or our Instagram page, because I post our shows on there and notes, and then we have PBS Tips of the Week on there that come from our shows, so all kinds of things to link us back and to get and you can email us at.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Email us at PBISjourneyToGenius at gmailcom. I'm Diane Ruff.
Speaker 2:And I'm Diane Farrell, and thanks for listening, and thanks for listening to PBIS Journey to Genius. Thank you, you.
